Multiple and "Lesser" Gods
"Only the Creator has the power to be God; looking to anything, or anyone, else for salvation is literally a dead end. ... Other gods have a contagious worthlessness - those who worship worthless gods become worthless in God's sight:"
A few thoughts regarding these comments:
First, the Bible often refers to other gods, and if I'm not mistaken, it simply suggests that we should not place their importance BEFORE that of the creator. It doesn't say they are powerless or that we should completely ignore them and pretend they don't even exist.
Second, I don't know a single person who looks to other gods or goddesses for SALVATION. In most traditions, followers turn to these "lesser deities" for guidance or help. Christians accept help from "angels" which are also considered extensions of the One true power.
Finally, I believe most would agree that the creator is greater than the creation. I was taught that God created all things. This included the heavens and angels or "lesser" gods. It was my understanding that nothing created by God was "worthless". In my humble opinion, just because something was created and thus "lesser" than its creator, this does not make it "worthless". Is there actually scripture that says some things created by God are worthless?
A few thoughts regarding these comments:
First, the Bible often refers to other gods, and if I'm not mistaken, it simply suggests that we should not place their importance BEFORE that of the creator. It doesn't say they are powerless or that we should completely ignore them and pretend they don't even exist.
Second, I don't know a single person who looks to other gods or goddesses for SALVATION. In most traditions, followers turn to these "lesser deities" for guidance or help. Christians accept help from "angels" which are also considered extensions of the One true power.
Finally, I believe most would agree that the creator is greater than the creation. I was taught that God created all things. This included the heavens and angels or "lesser" gods. It was my understanding that nothing created by God was "worthless". In my humble opinion, just because something was created and thus "lesser" than its creator, this does not make it "worthless". Is there actually scripture that says some things created by God are worthless?
It comes from the Sumerian law that you will have no other gods before An. meaning, no foreign gods about the main head honcho of the pantheon. Not no gods in general. I'd bet Moses was not even a monotheist.
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Or he was one of the first to be. With the exception of the Zorastrians in Persia.
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Regrettably,de Bible haas a theme to be a portrayed control piece.I never let this bul bother me .Ife my being a Druid is lesser going than why waasn't I flushes the toilet?
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1. Bible says that other Gods are not real- that they are just statues.
2. Is it important what Bible says? Why? Jehova is one of the Gods and his worshippers believe in Bible. Pagans have their Gods and everything is ok.
BB
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1.The point is not that all Gods do not exist, but rather that all Gods are merely names or aspects of one God. God is indescribable and the reason cultures have created so many "versions" of God is that they are simply trying to explain God in the best way they know how.
2. What the Bible says is important in a way similar to other holy books. It provides an explanation and a perspective. And this perspective is followed by more than 2 billion people. That is why the Bible, and what it says, is important.
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Maybe the point is that all Gods are One and I believe in this but Bible does not say it.
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OK, I am a Pagan, although different from most of the Pagans on here. I am not Wicca, I follow the old Greek gods (Zues, Poseidon, Apollo, Hades, you get the picture). Now for the 30,000 - 40,000 years that humans have been civilized and following religions, Christianity was only around for maybe 2% of that time. So during the rest of that time, religions like that of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and Norseman were what was there. Many, MANY people followed them at that time. Unfortunately, Christianity came along and eventually monarchs refused to let people have freedom of religion. To those who held onto their beliefs despite what the kings said, I applaud them. But for all we know, Christianity is just a fad. Greek mythology (and many of the others I mentioned) survived and flourished for hundreds and thousands of years. They are still followed today, although with what happened due to the medieval times, very few people still follow them. But in time, Pagan religions could come back. They could make the comeback that they deserve. Science and your Bible can't hide the fact that my beliefs are no more or less important than yours.
I apologize for my rant, but when Christians get all "high and mighty" with Pagans, it angers me. My religion has roots that Christianty can't compare to
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I for one totally agree with this the fact that the bible says that Christianity is the only way is false.the way many Christians think that their religion was the first is stupid considering even scientist have found proof of how deep pagan and wiccan roots go and it upsets me how hard headed and forceful Christians can be when they are the ones saying how good and peaceful they are!
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Cite the passage and Bible version stating your case; also, having spoken to Jehovah's Witnesses quite often who have only been briefed to cite scriptures to reflect a particular angle, these people do not know the entire scripture and become frightened when asked questions that step outside the boundaries of their religion, which, as the widow of a Lutheran Chaplain Commander and minister, I have had fun doing.
Look up pagan in a dictionary, then in a thesaurus. You'll find: heathen, unbeliever, unlearned (inerudite, instinctive), idolatrous - idol worship, reverent, uncritical.
idol - famous person, favorite, god, good person, graven image, likeness.
I looked up inerudite in the thesaurus; this was definitely the man who left me. I asked myself why I grieved.
You state pagans have their gods and everything is ok. According to the pagans I've met, they do not believe in gods, nor should I, meaning I am not ok if I do. The pagans I met viewed the Christians as specimens who were meant to be used, since they were dumb enough to be givers and not takers. There is no love lost among them. Learn to protect yourself. You will not be missed. If that sounds callous, it very well is. This is a new life.
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I know of no scripture, nor do I believe one exists, declaming any portion of God's creation. However, I do not believe the Bible refers to other dieties with the understanding that these beings actually exist. The Bible only says that people believe that these "dieties" exist, but does not endorse the idea that they do.
In the Bible I believe God commands us not to have other gods before him, because there are none. True there may be angels and other celestial beings, but God is saying that we should not mistake these creatures for gods by worshiping them. As you have said, only God may give Salvation.
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Well, I believe that what you believe that is true becomes the truth. Still thinking in the same lines, if I believe in a deity or entity, it'll exist, at least for me.
But then again I come back and ask: What meaning does the world God have in each of the interpretations? I mean, "God" is used to represent deities, the Creator, among other things.
Moreover, I think that the Bible has some things that should be seen with care, as it was made by the man. Not without His guidance, but man made nonetheless. What means that, in order to have more followers, this should be imperative, but I won't make any advance in this direction 'cause I don't want to judge it without a little more knowledge. But I still think these points should be analyzed.
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Well to my knowledge there is the creator, and lesser deities who are all an extension or part of the creator. I know in the catholic faith the trinity( god/the creator, Jesus, and the holy spirit) are all one with the creator and I believe that as a rather set religion they don't mention hte other deities, but in mythology and other verbal "histories" There is never anything that says that the gods/deities are the creator, they all start off with diff. origins or as humans who have earned the immortality, so if they never just appear but have roots doesn't that mean they from the one that made everything? that has always been my grasp of the matter.
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i believe that God is the creator of everything. saying that, i also think He created lesser gods/goddesses in different forms. like mother earth. i believe she is a goddess that nurtures us and keeps us alive, and God put us on earth to protect, love, care for, and stand for her while worshipping Him. i worship God and have faith in him but Wicca is becoming very interesting... so much so that i dreamed about it. i don't really know what else to believe, so my faith lies with the Father...
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we are molded from the earth in a form gia find ecseptable to live on, if she didnt wed all drownd in our own missery.
perfect is a lie ,worthless is only there if you se it to be in yourself. my sayings may not be easy to under stand but mind you we are all equal in all ways of the soul. only the goddes and lord can be greater then us for thay created our verry beings. the souls however are moded by our actions. there are no evil people only evil deeds. same goes with our value...
(please forgive me for im not to good a speller)
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The Bible is very clear that there is but ONE God and beside him there is none else though there may be some that are called "god" but by "nature" they are no god. (Galatians 4:8)
Isaiah 43:10,11
"Ye are my witnesses and my servant whom I have chosen that ye may believe me and understand that I am he; Before me there was no god formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD and beside me there is no Saviour."
Satan is called, "the god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Though Satan is referrred to as a "god" the bible is clear that men make many things to be God; from wood, to stone, to angels.
By nature there is but one God.
"Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods." Galatians 4:8
"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
Angels are not gods but created entities. (Colossians 1:15-18)
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I find it baffling that people cling to texts that were originally written by guys who thought the sky was solid and that stars were just ornaments on it's surface.
It's almost as if the older a book is, the more ignorant it's authors were, the more relevance and 'truth' it is assigned, which couldn't be further from the truth.
We know so much now, about ourselves and our surroundings; why do people continue to adhere to a heavily edited, out-dated bronze-age work of fiction when there is such a vast flow of information, and exciting new concepts to consider right here and now?
Instead of trying to decipher and interpret an old collection of fables, I've chosen to find my own spiritual Way, using my own judgement and up-to-date scientific knowledge as my casual guides.
Truth is a relative concept; I don't think there is any one, all-encompassing Truth that fits everyone and everything into a nice, tidy little kumbaya. Life doesn't work that way, and I certainly don't think that way.
I'm looking for my truth, and it certainly isn't contained within some fantastically terrible story about a bunch of dead guys with sexual hang-ups.
And that goes for the Essene Gospels as well. The Essenes were celibate for cripessakes; just how spiritually enlightened could they be??
Anywhoo, I'm rambling now.
Moral of the story is; seek your own truth, and try to keep in mind that what may be true for you may not be true for others. It's all relative.
Blessings
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Don't fool yourself with the idea that something old is something based upon misunderstanding. Our so-called modern world is simply based upon a different form of understanding (cognition) rather than intuition. Both have merits and it would be ignorant to propose that they don't. That said, I wouldn't say that modern knowledge is to be discarded.
I would agree with you that each person should find their own way spiritually, but the reality is that truth is, quite simply truth. There must exist an absolute truth, however I recognize the majority of humanity's inability to understand or find it, though I believe that some have succeeded in that venture.
I'm really not sure what celibacy has to do with the pursuit of truth. Don't confuse correlation with causality there. There might be some who are far enough past the physical world that such a thing is unimportant. Don't assume people's ignorance or pent-up motivations.
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My beloved. Some of you who call yourselves Witches are Pagan, whereas my brothers and sisters are Monotheist Wiccans. We worship Allah-Jehovah as the LORD Hunter God. And, His Consort Sophia/Alchemy/Wisdom in Proverbs 8. My Jehovah Disciples are not the pagan Witches' enemies. Please do not hate us for worshiping One God. We don't care if you worship many gods. Even if you worship a turd covered in maggots that looks like a butt crack, named Cheeks, the god of anus. We want an alliance, tell 3 people to Google Wiccan Pope. My Je.di. will not force our monotheist views on you.
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I am a proud witch and take offense to your term of (lesser gods)
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What exactly is paganism? I do believe that there is a superior being guiding all.
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I found the original statement so harsh and threatening - it never ceases to amaze me how people will engage in fear mongering - 'believe this or else' and in this case, salvation is on the line. This then leads to the question of what one is being 'saved' from or for?
I know the biblical answer, but why would a loving God, Father, create such a horrible place to damn His children to? But then, fear is a great tool for controlling others, and as noted by another, people write the holy texts. It's too bad that so many people still buy into the fear and blindly spread it.
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ok.. i have a question, i have been looking into the wiccan religion for quite some time now, my question is do spells actually work? i tried 1 but it didnt seem to do anything.
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I think the important thing to remember with comments like this are that Christianity, which is what you get from studying the Bible, is different from the modern Christian church. An organization that is basically just a political and business organization. I spent fifteen years trying to combine spirituality with life in church and the two are oil and water.
It's very easy to open the Bible and find a reason to oppress. It takes someone who is searching for deity to study and search for what the book is actually saying. These teachings weren't written in English, you know...
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there are not beings which a man would classify as a deity other than God the Father. The two "men" who destroyed Sodom and Gammora were, by Biblical standards, supernatural beings. Goliath, whom David killed with his sling, belonged to a tribe of giants who came about when "demons" empregnated human women. Daniel and the apostle John both saw many "wondrous" beings in their prophetic visions of heaven. Not to mention the horrors who plague the world in Revelations.
The "Judges" of the Old Testament were filled with the spirit of God. Everybody's heard of Sampson, but usually thinks of him in terms of the Greek Heracles. Sampson wasn't strong all the time, when there was a problem he was given power to deal with it, as long as he maintained the deal he had with God (part of which was never cutting his hair.)
The Old Testament is filled with stories of spiritual beings who interacted with man. But no preacher ever went on a rant about how Daniel sinned by asking Gabriel for help. Gabriel, who was sent by God, was also delayed by another "deity."
Christianity is a search for God, who created a world of wonders both physical and spiritual. It's the journey toward a loving Father who stands watching for His prodigal son who has left him in arrogance and anger, then welcomes him home with open arms... demanding no sort of punishment. Biblically speaking, the lesser beings exist but they are all subject to Him. He wants us to come straight to Him because He loves us personally.
The modern church, however, is not a journey towards deity. It's a tool for politicians to keep the unthinking masses in check, and in a perpetual state of labor to maintain the wealthy elite. If you don't like something they say, you're in sin. If your spiritual practices feel empty, you don't have enough faith. Intolerance, closed-mindedness and ignorance are not the teachings of the Bible, they're the teachings of fools.
There are big differences between the practices of Wiccans and the practices of Christians, but they aren't nearly as big as most people think. And the only people railing into cyperspace about them are the same people who call Wiccans "Satan worshippers." For an enlightened person to waste time debating wisdom with a fool who isn't even looking for it is clearly, in the words of Christ, "casting your pearls before swine."
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Hi, read the comments with interest,may I add. God created ALL things in heaven and on earth,nothing HE created is worthless.The bible speaks off other gods, even the bible ascribes power to lesser gods, it does not say they are worthless we are however not to put anything or anyone above God the creator.Remember this, we are all created in the image of God,this means we have an eternal soul, and God states quite clearly that HE knew us before we were even in our mothers wombs. So surely this in turn means that all we are, our gifts and talents are in fact a gift to us from God to be used for the benefit not only of ourselves, but for others.
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For all those who look at the old bible as being what it is : ie: just the churches grip on reality then you have it right. I was raised with the old ways. Ie: what my great grandmother was raised with. the mother and father ,the old ones. and the lesser gods and goddesses who over see every other aspect of the world that they cannot . Growing up my father wanted me exposed to variety of other religions hoping i wouldn't go my mothers path .LOL no such luck, but i have had the experience of learning of the other religions and this is what i'm most comfortable with .So as time goes on i'm passing this religion/way of life on to my child and let me tell you.. the school districts are having a field day with it . for I'm letting him stay home to see the whole preparation that goes in to Sabbath. and letting him have the opportunity to help where he can.But yet they have time out for Easter,and other various holidays. none of which we participate in. So my question for to day is WHy do they let the children have those holidays but not Yule,imbolc,and so on??? If you have an answer please let me know ...
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the "lesser" gods are kind of like personifications of different aspects of life. It makes things like lightning, love, and other emotions and natural occurences more understandable than they would otherwise be. By worshipping them what you are doing is concentrating your life on specific emotions etc. that you either want to be more prevelent in your life, or just to recognize your favorite things.
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We must be wary and optomistic, alert but calm, tolerant but diffiant. The creator has many faces, God is merely one of many.
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The Bible does make mention of gods. However, it does not follow that because the Bible makes mention of gods, that it is endorsing there are other gods, or putting the LORD (YHWH) only as the supreme God, as Zeus was among the Greeks. For example, 1 Chronicles 16:26 reads, "For all the gods of the peoples are idols: but the LORD made the heavens." This is repeated in Psalm 96:5. Other Scriptures speak of the LORD being above all the gods of the peoples. Psalm 95:3, and in Psalm 97:7 the Psalmist speaks to the gods and tells them to worship the LORD. The Lord says in Isaiah, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no god beside me.." Isaiah 45:5.
The point is this. The Bible speaks of the gods of the people, not as though they truly exist, but rather in the common form of speech. If I say that the Hindus worship many gods, I am not saying that the gods of the Hindus are actually gods. I am simply recognizing what the Hindus do and believe.
Concerning salvation, every religion there is found some sort of soteriological thought. Using Hinduism, for example, they are seeking through their worship and service of their gods to break the cycle and death and rebirth, called samsara. (Vedic Hinduism). There will be variations and different ideas, but there is a soteriology here, or doctrine (teaching) of salvation. I think if you research using soteriology you may turn up more information on the how different religions prescribe their own teaching of salvation (whether individual or collective).
To your final thought, the answer is twofold. First, God created all things, both in heaven and earth, both visible and invisible, very good. So, did God create anything in the beginning worthless? Of course not.
But things have not continued from beginning without change. Sadly, the change that was introduced was death and corruption through the sin of the first man and woman. Proverbs 6:2 says "A worthless person, a wicked man, walks with a perverse mouth." Mankind is the creation of God. But through sin and wickedness we have corrupted ourselves wholly, and through active sin become worthless.
I want to add in closing that I appreciate the tone of this blog. Much what I have heard from the Pagan world has been on the nasty side. Your blog is thoughtful and respectful. I hope you find my reply given in like manner.
Contact me anytime if you wish.
In Christ,
Fivesolas
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to me having a god means you have some one to turn to in your time of need but that does not mean that you can't look to family and friends for help just as much as you do your god of choice.
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I have been reading a book called "Christian Traditions Myths and Fables by Victor Parma" I strongly recommend that ALL Christians read this book with an open mind that is so hard to find among them. My summarization...Basically ALL organized religions have molested the truth that The Holy Bible teaches. Christ: not part of a Trinity but an anointed MAN of God...Trinity: invented by the church, Angels: translate directly to messengers no(not heavenly beings) Satan: is anyone who is against the church (translates to adversary, The Fallen Angel: church invented (Lucifer translates to morning star). There are so many myths surrounding Christianity that we really need to learn what The Bible really says and not what church leaders and theologians say it says. Personally, the church turned me way off on Christianity so long ago and I find my truth in Wicca. To those searching for a place in Gods system, it is completely a personal journey and look at all aspects with an open mind and let the truth speak to you, not over powering people in your life.
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You should not be looking to a god for salvation, but looking within yourself for it instead, gods are to be worshiped, so as to seek guidance and live in harmony with nature.
Angels are but only extension on to the "One True Power" and are not free thinking or with powers of there own it is just Christianities way of saying "although you cannot see, hear or feel god (otherwise you would be consumed by the great power of his being) the angels will be here as entities of him, to guide you on your way", but they are not "Lesser gods" as they are but robots/dummies/lesser clones to the Christian creator.
The bible is a guideline most of its scriptures are not to be taken literally, however saying this the ten commandments are not as much guidelines but more rules (even though the catholic church has twisted some rules to benefit themselves).
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"Truth is a relative concept."
This concept is sometimes implied or declared in our western society and culture, in our schools and universities, and in casual conversation very often. Those who espouse it range from professors to workmen. What I wonder is if those who say such this have actually thought through their statement.
Let me challenge this thinking. It is claimed that "Truth is a relative concept" or simply put, "Truth is relative." Have you considered that this declaration itself is a truth claim? It is a claim or statement about reality. We could ask: "Is it true that truth is relative?"
The challenge to the professor of relativism is that they must make a truth claim in an attempt to assert that there is no truth. When a person begins to think through this position it becomes plainly obvious that it cannot stand. There is nothing needed to refute relativism other than to point out the obvious: The claim implodes upon itself and is reasonably and plainly self-contradictory.
Because such an idea continues to persist in our society it seems to me that it survives only because it has not been through through completely, or because people hold other motivations for trying to maintain it.
Honey_Thistle, how can you have a moral of a story when your fundamental philosophy denies the possibility for any objective morality to begin with?
If the beginning of your quest for "your" truth is the denial of truth itself, what do you expect to find?
I would also ask this forum based on Honey_Thistle's a very pointed and clear question based on one of her (?) premises. She said, "We know so much now, about ourselves and our surroundings..."
My question would be: And what has that changed? If we know so much more than what generations gone by have known, and these ancient peoples are regarded as unenlightened or barbaric, what in our new knowledge has changed about the fundamental disposition to mankind for evil? In the modern and postmodern era the world has seen more depravity, violence, murders, rape, and the like that treats a fellow human being without dignity and value that any generation recorded history has afforded us to know.
If knowledge has been an advancement to the human condition, then why has mankind remained the same "sinners" they were 3,000 years ago as they are today?
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you are SO right
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I agree with you totally nothing created is worthless or it would not have been made.
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I am a Christian a Baptist i can help clear somethigns for some peopel if they would like i belieev God is the creator and he made everything good. The Bible may say some things are useless but those things are made by man which was made by God. God made the universe, world, mankind, and what is natural on it like nature, man made idols and things to worship band those are useless. WE belieev in the Trinity God the father (Creator), God the Son (Saviour), and God the Holy Spirit (the spirit that goes into us when we are Saved), These beings are three seperated but are also one meanign they are connected. That is a big difference between what we believe. We believe you must be Saved by Jesus (God the Son) before you can get into Heaven. I turn to God for help. I can ask others to help but God can help me the best way and will do what is needed. The reason i read The Bible and learn from ti is ebcause God told all those authors what to write. There was about 40 and God is the one who told them all the words to write so that means God is the real author they were really just scribes for God. The Bibles holds truths to everythign we need but you must search just reading it wont help you. Everytime you study you will find something new. The Bible has an infinite number of answers. if you would like to hear more then please comment and tel me i dotn want to judge you for your beliefs but defend mine i came here in research to help a guy find Christ who believes in the wiccan belief
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I agree with "seek your own truth, and try to keep in mind that what may be true for you may not be true for others". I also follow my own path. I believe in God and Goddess, and there are no gods but Them. All others are just aspects of Them.
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Kardia, i wanted to contact you because i have some questions about an encounter some friends of mine had with some hooded figures. if you could contact me, and offer some insite i would appriciate the guidence.
rachel
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I think Sylvia Browne has the right idea with her teachings/beliefs. For the most part, we are all here to learn and therefore grow closer to God/Our creator (mother God too!)... All things, including humans, were meant to teach others about this life, AND the next. I could go on but I'm sure you are on a similar path and have heard it all before
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I very much agree.
I am strong in the Wiccan religion and do not understand some reactions that I get. I am sometimes bombarded by questions and comments like "Don't you want to go to heaven?" and "Our god is the only true god." But fortunatly meditating has given me plenty of help.
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Agreed!
I think that,basicly,all gods are just about the same.
They congradulate kindness toward others and punish those who commit crimes,like the Rages haunting those who murder family members.
I,also,do not like the acts of some religious parties.
Remember when the pope was the highest place?
One time back then (I found this out on Nova) there was a law that the bible could not be translated into English (the peasents came to church,but could not understand what the pope said) because the pope feared that the church lose power. The result was that many people were burned alive at the stake for trying to translate the bible in secret.
Now,I'm not trying to stereiotype Christians (as some have done to me with my being a Wiccan,like shouting "WITCH!" at me) but you'd think that their god would want all to know about the bible,and I think it shouldn't have had to be that way.
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What you say is true the bible was written in latin and only those educated could understand it (very few of these at the time), it was as you said a form of control to keep the people fearing what they did not know but also because latin was the greater language and no other language was fit to carry the scriptures of the christian god
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Personally I'm not sure I see this argument is relevant. Honestly this discussion has fallen at times into defense, accusation and discontentment. Many times the Bible has been referred to as an ancient document, and therefor not a reliable source as the people who wrote it did not have our modern understanding. The fact is that many of us don't have their understanding either. You can see through this whole discussion people using logic and reasoning, which is fantastic and good, but that doesn't address the play of intuition, feeling and the kind of understanding you just feel within yourself. Each person must find there own way to truth and I think that the materials we have to do so with should not be discarded offhandedly. They are human, so they should be taken with a grain of salt, but they are inspired by something many of us seem to have lost touch with in.
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THEY SIT
The Horned One sits
At the head of the table;
The Great Mother Sits
At the other end of the table;
The Children, One, Two, Three
Sit between, happy as can be.
What a wonderful Wicca family!
~ The Poor Podet (April 21, 2012)
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